Citizens in countries where genocide has occurred are often conflicted about showing patriotism due to the events that have happened in their country. An example of this is Germany, where it took over 60 years and a hosting a huge international event, the 2006 World Cup last summer, for many Germans to feel comfortable showing pride about being German. Most applauded this development, seeing it as a symbol of recovery for Germany.
Article link: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/07/12/EDGOBIPUQ21.DTL
Discussion questions and ideas:
Do you think it is appropriate now for Germans to show patriotism? How much time has to pass after genocide for people to start feeling proud of their country again? Does any time have to pass?
Do you think people would be as willing to use Germany’s flag as a patriotic symbol today if the modern German flag were still the symbol of the Nazi party, or if the Nazis had kept and marched under the modern German flag?
Do you personally ever feel reluctant about showing patriotism because of the United States’ actions? Why or why not?
What do you think Marian Marzynski, the Holocaust survivor in the film today, would think about Germans displaying patriotism in daily life? During the World Cup?
7 comments:
Regarding the questions about the amount of time that hsould pass before a country should show patriotism, that's definitely one of those "where is the line" questions where it depends on your opinion. Some people, especially Holocaust survivors, may have been offended to see German patriotism too soon after the Holocaust. Both Eva and Marian mentioned having an aversion to hearing even the German language due to their traumatic experiences,(for isntance, today in the movie Marian wanted to hear a lullaby in German to put the language as far away from the context of the Holocaust as possible) and hearing the pro-German chants probably would evoke even more past trauma. That being said, Germans today are not guilty of what happened in the past, so who is responsible for ensuring that Holocaust survivors are emotionally at ease?
I think that if the German flag of today were used as the Nazi flag, that would raise the stakes...although I think the government would have changed the flag by now even if they hadn't right after the Holocaust, simply because of the association.
I do often feel reluctant showing patriotism due to some of the actions of the US because I often feel like the general sense of patriotism encompasses endorsing the actions of the government. However, some people would definitely have good arguments against that statement. How would you define patriotism? Can you be fully patriotic and not agree with decisions of the government? This makes me wonder if any resisters against genocide and governments instigating genocide ever considered themselves patriotic...how much of a government's policies must one agree with to be patriotic?
There really isn't a time table for showing patriotism...even in countries that have committed atrocities; the issue is more how they show patriotism. The swastika represents Nazi Germany...the German flag represents current Germany. Though they may be associated, there are clear distinctions.
Patriotism can often be used to heal the wounds resulting from genocide, as in Rwanda. Currently, there are large movements in Rwanda to emphasize citizens' "Rwandanness" instead of their "Hutuness" or "Tutsiness" as it was in the past(leading up to and during the genocide). The current president of Rwanda is a Tutsi (part of the minority targeted during the genocide). However, he stresses that he is Rwandan above all else.
In response to Katie's questions, I think you can be patriotic without endorsing the government's actions. Have you ever seen the bumper sticker that says "I love my country but fear my government." I think that sums it up right there: governments are transitory but a country and its people are lasting. Patriotism can be in response to something like the constitution or the freedom Americans enjoy, and not towards the actions of the government. Nevertheless, I am still unsure of my level of patriotism, so I guess all of this might apply more in theory than practice.
i think that the german people could be patriotic (in that they loved their country) and still acknowlege that nazi germany did horrible things during the holocaust. of course, right after genocide, it is unlikely that anyone would feel proud of his or her country. but i think that the next generation shouldn't feel the shame that the former one felt - if they had to, it would be a constant circle of shame and the country would never become "normal" again.
i think that marzynski was particularly bitter, so anything that was "pro-german" would be a bit hard for him to accept. i think, though, that as we were watching the film, he was slowly opening up to the german culture and accepting germany as a new country - he was able to separate the germany of today from nazi germany.
i definitely agree with jordan in that you don't have to agree with the government in order to be patriotic. i think that patriotism is wanting to see your country grow and prosper as well as appreciating the opportunities your country has given to you. i think it's kind of like supporting the troops but not the war... if you know what i mean.
-coe
I think this brings us back to an earlier conversation about what patriotism is. I agree with Coe and Jordan that patriotism does not equate satisfaction/support of one's government.
In response to the question about German patriotism, I think it really depends what you're patriotic about. Germans can be patriotic about/proud of some of their positive accomplishments in the past, their culture, and their current situation even though they may be ashamed of the Holocaust. Similarly, I may be ashamed of many of the things that the US has done, but at the same time, I am proud of many of its accomplishments. I don't know if there should be a "time frame" for when one should feel patriotism. One can always feel patriotic, it just depends on what aspects of their nation they are feeling patriotic about and proud of.
I think that the line between what is acceptable and what is not can be defined as the line between patriotism and nationalism. Nazi Germany promoted its antisemitism right along side Aryan and German superiority, and the two worked together to help justify the extermination of the Jews. Patriotism is more of a love and support for one's country, and it does not necessarily have ethnic or cultural connotations, or implications of superiority.
I agree with Rene - the swastika represents Nazi Germany's intense nationalism, whereas the German flag promotes current German patriotism.
Germany was the victim of her own holocaust also not to mention the actual numbers of german citizens being victims of the enemies genocide dwarfing that of the holocaust !
Germans should not wait one more damned minute simple show pride swell the ranks with proud citizens and show the world that germany has payed in blood reparations and has for far too long been made to live in guilt for actions that are questionable and uncertain to say the least !
Do not wait not one more minute UBER ALLES
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